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Title: Interview with Peter Märthesheimer
Author: Fareed Armaly, 1991
Interview with Peter Märthesheimer
Fareed Armaly
Peter Märthesheimer is the producer of such projects as Acht Stunden
sind kein Tag (WDR, 1972), Berlin Alexanderplatz, scriptwriter for such
films as Die Ehe der Maria Braun, Die Sehnsucht der Veronika Voss, Lola
"The lineage of aesthetic and representational theory behind the Arbeiterfilme
is not exhausted by Lukács and Brecht. It is worth considering too
the influence of Ernst Bloch, whose category 'Der aufrechte Gang' was appropriated
by Ziewer as the title for his third film and by Märthesheimer in his
essay 'What can the hero do'.
Bloch argues for a reality of contradiction, the contradiction between,
for instance, an individual's own economic interest in the maintenance of
capitalism and his or her ethical commitment to a praxis of revolution;or
between non-synchronous but contemporaneous modes of production, the dominant
residual and emergent as formulated by Raymond Williams in Marxism and Literature
and for a hermeneutic system that attends to the dialectical aspect of these
contradictions.
Bloch stands then, in the construction of the Arbeiterfilm, as a sign of
the importance of the representation of the imaginary as well as real relations,
of the 'personal' as well as the 'political', of the domestic as well as the
productive economy, and for the importance of ethical as well as material
aspirations in the living out of people's lives."
Collins and Porter: WDR and
the Arbeiterfilm. 1981
Fareed Armaly: Pertaining to your
production of the television family series Eight hours are not a day, the
series director, Rainer Werner Fassbinder made some statements which can be
read as related to your essay The occupation of a Bourgeois genre. He said:
"Family series are what Germans like watching", and intended to 'occupy'
the genre.
Peter Märthesheimer: This was my intention. But it was his intention then
too. Mein Bezugspunkt, mein Bezugssystem waren ganz klar nicht amerikanische
Serien, sondern es waren deutsche Serien. Family programs-die Familie Schölermann
hießen die. Funny programs, sehr harmonisch and people were used to look
at it. It was great success with the German audience.(1)
F.A.: The television audience is often considered as 'the public', an amorphous
composition with diverse stratas, supposedly brought together into one homogenous
viewing community by televisions informing structure of agreement and shared
accord. For example, with 'family characters', the expectations are of stories
reflecting 'harmony'. So this reuse of the family programming was something
of a considered tactic?
P.M.: Ich versuche mich zurückzuversetzen in diese Zeit. Ich glaube, Ihre
Frage hat mich deshalb so verwirrt, weil sie nichts mit meinem Kopf zu tun hat,
weil so das Denken nicht läuft. Das Denken läuft so: Ich möchte
etwas hervorbringen, eine Produktion, die das Publikum erreicht -das ist das
Problem jeder Vermittlung-und zum Anderen hatte ich, das hängt auch mit
meiner Biographie und mit meinem Studium zusammen, bestimmte kritische Vorstellungen
über den Zustand der Gesellschaft. Nun wollte ich beides zusammenbringen.(2)
F.A.: In that interview Fassbinder stated one first creates a potential audience
: "Then such and such a family comes to people regularly in their homes
and they can do what the characters do. From then on one can attempt to introduce
political content." Do you think this was the function?
P.M.: At this time it had been the function. Today I'm more sceptic about it.
But in these days we were successful with the transport of the idea.
F.A.: Why would the possibilities be there at WDR at this time? It's unusual
for a TV-station?
P.M.: Today it would be unusual, but in this time, the late 60s, beginning 70s,
this was a time of ... die ganze Gesellschaft war aufgeregt;die ganze Gesellschaft
hatte ein Gefühl von: 'Wir haben die alten Strukturen, im Grunde die Strukturen
der Vor-Nazizeit, die dann eben in die Nazizeit übergingen, die haben wir
restauriert.' Das Wort nach 1945 hieß ja nicht 'Aufbau', sondern 'Wiederaufbau'-'reconstruction',
not 'construction'. Und es war in der Tat eine perfekte Rekonstruktion der Weimarer
Zeit. Das war eben die Adenauer-Zeit. Und diese Zeit war die Willy Brandt-Zeit
gewesen. Also ein erster linker Bundeskanzler, seit 1933, also 30 Jahre später,
der auch für eine Utopie stand; der für seinen Entwurf stand, wie
die Gesellschaft veränderbar sein sollte. Dann gab es die kritischen Studenten,
die Universitäten brachen auf. Das gesamte gesellschaftliche Klima war
im Grunde sehr günstig. Ideen kommen immer dann-jedenfalls Ideen für
ein Massenmedium, wenn das gesamtgesellschaftliche Klima so ist. Und insofern
war es damals überhaupt nicht ungewöhnlich. Dem Projekt Acht Stunden
sind kein Tag sind andere Arbeiterfilme vorausgegangen, die vor allem von
der Berliner Filmhochschule kamen. Die haben mir aber nicht gefallen, weil es
so ein realistischer approach zur Wirklichkeit war. Es war eine Art Verdoppelung
dessen, wie es ist. Und ich dachte, wenn man schon ... Ich muß noch etwas
hinzusagen. Was damals stark in mir war, war die Überzeugung, hier mache
ich die Kommunikation, dort kommt sie an und es wird sich etwas ändern.
The communication will change something. Das war so eine Grundüberzeugung,
die ich heute nicht mehr teile, aber damals habe ich sie geteilt. Ich dachte,
ich drücke hier auf den Knopf und dort geht das Licht an. Es war auch ein
allgemeines Gefühl, nicht nur mein Gefühl. Wenn man schon in einer
solchen Position innerhalb eines Massenmediums sitzt, heißt das, dass
man an einem Abend 10, 20, 30 Millionen Menschen zugleich erreichen kann. Ich
habe dies stark als ein Privileg empfunden und als eine Verantwortung. Die sind
'less educated than me', die sind 'less privileged than me', und ich bin sozusagen
verantwortlich, responsible to take care of them and to look, dass ihre Lebensumstände
besser werden.(3)
F.A.: Could one say that with this aspect of WDR programming there was somewhat
of an experiment, of sorts?
P.M.: Ich hatte nicht die Vorstellung, dass es ein Experiment ist.(4)
F.A.: Aber bei anderen Stationen - Bremen oder Hamburg oder Bavaria - war es
nicht so.(5)
P.M.: Nun gut. Der Westdeutsche Rundfunk ist, das muß man sehen, ein sehr
großer Rundfunk, d.h. Bremen macht zwei Produktionen pro Jahr, der WDR
macht ungefähr zwanzig Produktionen pro Jahr. D.h. Bremen hätte es
gar nicht machen können, wir aber hatten das Geld und die Sendetermine,
um es zu probieren.(6)
F.A.: In much of the American or English material published on this time period
of the WDR (the 70s, where von Bismarck (Intendant) and Dr. Rohrbach (Chief
of WDR drama department and cultural productions) and yourself are working in
the terms of certain types of production, there appears to be a sense of the
experiments within. There are arguments occuring in the newspapers, as well
as writing or statements from von Bismarck, from Rohrbach, from yourself. The
goals of addressment or organizing an audience in the U.S. are thought out in
a much different scale from the beginning. The producers or larger network stations
don't work to define a particular situation. In terms of most cultural productions,
the development and resolidifying the lines of established genres persists.
It's clear that a television producer won't be publishing in newspapers about
'occupation of a bourgeois genre', or for that matter citing Ernst Bloch, or
even mentioning 'working-class'. This occured in Germany completely within the
structure of one of the largest stations. Within the American framework, such
television networks aren't required or obliged to state such intentions, nor
would have to do so. In fact, the opposite is perhaps more the case. Particularly
when doing so would result, as it did, with problems, partly infering that politics
in some way is involved. This would certainly not tranaslate to an economic
success, more so, it would assist in losing any advertisors or sponsorship.
P.M.: First of all, during the time I worked in the WDR, money played no role
at all. We had money enough. It was public money. You didn't need to be successful
in an economic sense. Eight hours are not a day is a production of WDR
personnel. Today it is still public money which is there, but today, because
the budget is smaller, you have to look at a relation between input of money
and output in terms of audiences, but during the 70s you didn't care. Yes, the
production had a large audience share. But the thinking wasn't :"We need
a large audience out of economic reasons", but rather, we would reach all.
Everyone who makes a communication loves that not only you and you are listening
but that millions of people should listen to my wonderful ideas.
F.A.: Obviously some did, the WDR productions drew a name from the conservative
press: 'Rotfunk'.(7) You have produced many of the films which come out of various
circumstances that brought together, within the WDR, a particular set of individuals
working in view of some intended directions. How did the internal discussions
occur, arguments internal to and aware of the character of the collaboration
with the directors involved?
P.M.: Damals ging es nicht um Erlaubnis. Ich fange mal bei mir an. Ich bin sozusagen
ideologisch geprägt. Ich bin von meinem Studium her Soziologe und dann
auch noch von einer Universität, wo die dortige Soziologie 'Kritische Theorie'
hieß, also Adorno. Das ist meine Prägung. Jetzt bin ich als Redakteur
zunächst mal nahezu autonom, solange ich nicht gegen die Rundfunkgesetze
und die allgemeinen Gesetze verstoße. Solange ich erfolgreich bin in meiner
Arbeit wird jeder sagen: "Aha, du willst das und das produzieren, produziere
es." Jeder Vorgesetzte wird erfreut sein, wenn ich ihm ein interessantes
Projekt unterbreite und sagen: "Ach, das ist ja interessant, die Idee mit
den Arbeitern." Nun ging die Anregung - ich komme jetzt zur zweiten Stufe
in der Hierarchie - von Rohrbach aus, und zwar von der ganz einfachen Überlegung:
2/3 unseres Publikums sind Arbeiter, aber unsere Filme spielen bei Ärzten,
Professoren, Fabrikanten usw. Warum machen wir nicht mal was anderes. Das war
ganz naiv und unschuldig. Rohrbach war der Nicht -Ideologe, deswegen habe ich
gesagt: "Ich bin der Ideologe." Daraufhin habe ich als Redakteur gesagt:
"Ja fein, das ist gut.Ó Dann kam dieses spezielle Konzept. Rohrbach, wie
ich sagte, ist der Nicht -Ideologe, er ist ein liberal denkender Mensch, und
er ist an Erfolg interessiert. Er will, dass das Fernsehspiel des Westdeutschen
Rundfunks erfolgreich ist. Dieses Versprechen löse ich ein. Die Serie war
erfolgreich. Jetzt kommt eine Ebene, die Sie nicht erwähnt haben, die aber
ganz wichtig ist. Das ist der damalige Fernsehdirektor, Werner Höfer. Bismarck
spielt dabei eine ganz wunderbare Rolle, nämlich gar keine. Bismarck war
ein Intendant - das gab es auch nur damals in den 70er Jahren - der sein Amt
verstanden hat als Repräsentant dieses Senders. Alle Redakteure sollten
sich glücklich fühlen, wunderbare Programme machen, und er hat sich
die überhaupt nicht angeguckt. Zum Bismarck wurde ich nur in zwei, drei
Krisensituationen gerufen, und zwar Wochen nach der Ausstrahlung des Programms.
Da hatte er sich das Programm selbst dann noch nicht angeguckt.(8)
F.A.: What were the crisis?
P.M.: Jemand hat dagegen protestiert, ein einflußreicher Politiker hat
sich beschwert, die Industrie hat sich beschwert. Der Redakteur mußte
kommen und dann wollte Bismarck nur wissen: "Wir haben da ein Problem,
was sage ich jetzt den Leuten?" Vom Redakteur wollte er sozusagen mit Argumenten
ausgerüstet werden, und deutlich machen, dass er für ihn kämpfte.
Bismarck war sozusagen der alte preußische Offizier. Er trägt die
Verantwortung für seine Leute, aber kämpfen sollen die Leute selbst.
Er ist der Gutsherr, wir sind das Gesinde. Also Bismarck war ein Mann des Laissez-faire.
Er ist der gute Vater und die Arbeit machen andere, die Spezialisten. Und zwischen
Bismarck und Rohrbach gab es nun Werner Höfer, der Direktor, der spielt
in der Tat eine ganz große Rolle, weil er dieses Aufbruchsklima verkörpert
hat. Höfer war auch kein Ideologe, sondern ein Journalist. Ein Journalist,
der primär daran interessiert war: alles, was wir machen, muß auf
irgendeine Art und Weise auffallen. Vielleicht sind die Leute dagegen, vielleicht
regen sie sich auf.(9)
F.A.: Which people?
P.M.: The audience.
F.A.: The term 'the audience' is a wide one.
P.M.: Critics. Und Politiker. Höfer war der Meinung, ein Programm, das
von allen Politikern gelobt wird, muß ein beschissenes Programm sein.
Aus. Wenn alle Politiker sich aufregen, dann muß es ein interessantes
Programm sein. Nicht ideologisch gedacht, sondern auffällig, also Marketing,
wenn man so will. Das war das Klima, in dem so etwas entstanden ist, also das
ist sozusagen das Umfeld von Kultur.(10)
F.A.: Is it normal, is it standard, that people with the higher positions in
television stations involved with TV-production are somehow also in politics?
P.M.: Heute ist das ganz ungewöhnlich, in dieser Zeit schien es normal
zu sein. Der Nachfolger Bismarcks war ein Sozialdemokrat, Bismarck war gar nichts.
Er hat vielleicht sozial-demokratisch gewählt, vielleicht auch nicht. Er
war Bismarck als Person. Herr von Sell war Sozialdemokrat, und in seiner Antrittsrede
an die Belegschaft hat er als seine Hauptaufgabe, die er sich stellte, bezeichnet,
dass es ihm darum gehe, diesen Sender regierbar zu machen. Er meinte, dieser
Sender sei, wie er ihn übernommen habe, nicht ordentlich genug. Er müsse
ihn jetzt in eine Form kriegen, so dass man ihn beherrschen kann. And that's
the difference von den frühen zu den späten 70ern. Oder jedenfalls
war das Spezifische an dieser 'Rohrbach - Höfer - Bismarck - Periode',
dass sie liberal waren.(11)
F.A.: The American or British texts focus point to this period as one successful
instance of public broadcasting - a commentary to their respective situations,
in a sense, and a sense of fascination that the German TV. programming structure,
although set up by the allies, has no correlatable model at all in the commercial
or state televisions of the reorganizers, the U.S. or England. There is 'audience'
understood as a public which the media is responsible to, seen constituted as
groups, and in this instance, a set of productions was established to address
society as structured within terms of a working-class environment. Is this addressment
in 1970 or '72 to 'the workers', to better picture them?
P.M.: No. Just to deal with problems of the 'working class'. Rohrbach wouldn't
use the word 'class'. Er meint, wieviele Leute in unserem Publikum einer bestimmten
Schicht angehören. There's a difference between 'class' and 'group'.(12)
F.A.: There are many discussions during the time-period concerning the critical
attempts at a synthetic fiction/documentary. In one instance, this is related
to those films or series that are loosely pulled together under the title 'Arbeiterfilm
productions'. The problems are often of appearances and intentions, what other
themes or problematic narratives may actually in the end also be paralleling
the intended main narrative. Considering your intentions in terms of 'occupying
of a family program', etc. Could that strategy be considered as a viable option
within television production today?
P.M.: Ich nehme an, dass ein Begriff, der damals überhaupt eine große
Rolle gespielt hat, der auch in diesem Aufsatz vorkommt, wichtig war: 'Der aufrechte
Gang'. Er ist von einem Philosophen, der damals sehr häufig gelesen worden
ist, von Ernst Bloch, und meint, dass die Menschen im bürgerlichen Zeitalter
nicht mehr unter ihren Herren gebeugt, sondern aufrecht gehen. Die Prämisse
des ganzen Experimentes war ganz einfach die, dass wir - jetzt meine ich wirklich
Fassbinder und mich - den Menschen zeigen wollten, dass sie nicht so ängstlich
gebückt, sondern dass sie aufrecht gehen sollen, und wenn es Probleme gibt,
sollen sie aus einem sehr starken Ich -Bewußtsein heraus sagen: "Ich
bin ich. Und ich will das nicht so, ich will es anders." Das ist die ganze
Ideologie. D.h. die Ideologie der Sache ist im Grunde, zu sagen: "Leute,
es macht Spaß für euch selbst zu kämpfen." Nichts mit Klassenkampf.
Just a fight for yourself, what you think is right, and you fight
for it.(13)
F.A.: As the individual is a member of the working class, and not an individual
in, for instance, simply any outlying resedential districts, this takes on another
meaning?
P.M.: It has another meaning. Der Zuschauer, auch der Arbeiter -Zuschauer, is
used to look at television plays, wo ein Chefarzt sagt: "So wird es gemacht,
das ist mein Wunsch." Der Chefarzt geht aufrecht. Oder er sieht einen Unternehmer
oder Fabrikanten, der sagt: "So wird es gemacht." Alle gehen aufrecht,
nur die Arbeiter nicht, die kommen immer so daher. Die kriegen immer die Befehle
von anderen. Der ganze Kunstgriff, oder das, was damals auch das Aufsehen erregt
hat, war, dass dort-aber das hatte auch sehr viel mit dem zu tun, was man gesehen
hat-der Hauptdarsteller Gottfried John nicht so aussah, wie Arbeiter in deutschen
Fernsehspielen gewöhnlich aussehen. Er war auch nicht so gekleidet wie
Arbeiter normalerweise. Es war nicht realistisch.(14)
Description of the first seconds of introduction to Eight Hours Are Not
A Day:
Family is sitting around table.'Son-character' opens champagne bottle. It
explodes and spills on the lap of 'aunt-character'. She stands up, pulls her
arm back and then slaps son. Little girl at table laughs. 'Father -character',
sitting next to her, slaps her. Uncomfortable silence at table and all focus
on this incident. Little girl leaves table. Stands in hallway, looks back in
resentment. Exchange of glances between characters. 'Father character' apologizes
weakly to those at the table. Normal conversation resumes. Champagne is poured.
F.A.: The program experiments with a combination: the 'acceptable' face of a
family series with the viewpoints normally belonging to the Arbeiterfilm, with
the perspective of a Fassbinder. It proves successful, in terms of attracting
an audience. The criticism of that time appears dismayed that in the end, the
family is called upon again, 'the largest unit of the bourgeois structure';
the individual's strength is seen to be produced through that constellation
of family. It's functioning to promote many other aspects of a family series.
The family wins.
P.M.: The family wins, yes. Ich denke heute anders darüber. Ich denke,
es ist damals sehr überschätzt worden, und ich nehme an, wenn wir
die Serie so fortgesetzt hätten, diesen Entwurf ... Ich glaube, der Erfolg
dieser Serie bestand nicht in den Hauptdarstellern Gottfried John und Hanna
Schygulla, sondern der Erfolg dieser Serie bestand in den Nebendarstellern.
Die Nebendarsteller waren diejenigen, die 'Familie' repräsentierten. Oma
und Opa, Mutter und Vater, also Figuren aus dem bürgerlichen Genre selbst,
aus diesem platten sozusagen. Nun würde ich sagen, es ist trotzdem interessant
zu sehen, wenn es gelungen ist, etwas zu vermitteln von diesem kleinen, aber
auch sehr großen Gedanken, nämlich des 'Aufrecht-Gehens'. Wenn es
gelingt, dem Zuschauer eine Freude zu machen, indem er sieht dass und
wie jemand kämpft. That's enough.(15)
Eight hours are not a day was an approach that we took the characters
and put an idea in their heads which they hadn't in reality for themselves.
The author put the idea in so far that he left the balance between fantasy and
description because he didn't describe, like Ziewer and Runge [Märthesheimer
produced as well]. Erika Runge was the one who described in the first step and
in the second step tried to bring out what had been in the heads of the people.
The other approach is to take the characters, the people, and not to describe
them, but to take them like you take a pot and put the idea in their heads.
To use them. They are characters, but synthetic characters, not taken out of
reality.
An author who wants to tell a story has to deal with characters. Take Eight
hours: First step: The main character. Second step: The character has a
girlfriend. He's in love or something. Then: He has parents, or he's in conflicts
with his parents. You think in social stereotypes. And the stereotype is the
grandmother - the beloved grandmother stereotype. You look at it and say: "Now
I have my characters." You look at it and it's a family. I think this 'topos
family' is quite natural if you want to tell stories. You need characters, and
you come through to the form of the family. If you think as a storyteller, in
the category of 'cowboy' being your main character, you think of his second
character, his horse-but not his grandmother.
F.A.: TV programming structure is both informed by and is part of the formation
of aspects of changing social habits-TV culture. So for instance, a program,
its characters, the narratives, are considered not only within the repetitive
security and frame of a hour long series and it's narrative storyline, but within
other structures, for instance: the more contemporary situation of viewers switching
channels all the time-what is today called 'entertainment slalom'. This other
kind of unity (or is it 'interconnectedness'?) - that of 'watching TV' - is
perhaps the subject of-and today itself the actual story -which is being transmitted.
Perhaps today the first subject of every story is 'watching TV' as television
literally concerns its power to inform the individual of the view out of the
room's window, and not so simply the other way around. It reflects more than
just a family to a family (with the family series) or the current news events
to the current viewers. It is an operation that unifies a diverse set of communities
into one nation of viewers.
Within the logic of that development the notion of a 'synthetic character' suits
the main needs of the television media, where categories such as 'personality'
or 'star' are demanded of-or desired so-to be both that, and somehow, as well,
just their opposite. The audience sees themselves reflected as-identifying with-a
'personality'. These character's story continues endlessly into the viewers
experiance and frame of time, by nature of the lack of distinguishing boundaries
between news, fiction, commercial, game show, etc.
Along with the moment of what is called 'Arbeiterfilm productions', and also
during the early 70s, 1970-'72, appeared Wünsch Dir Was, the live TV family
game show, which also had a very large viewing audience, and which also gained
notoriety by intentionally using the family entertainment genre -this time in
terms of game show. Judging by the comments and press of that time, by nature
of the programs live 'actions', it puts together another kind of 'critical family
entertainment'-as it was called by both press and producers. Today, it's insightful
in the way it reflects aspects of its era. The 'story' is that of every family
comprising the audience, restaged again and again by the three real families
appearing as contestants. Inevitably, these contestants in their actions allowed
for the audience the chance to display the artificial qualities of the 'family
characters'. The husband and wife hosts for the show, were real 'personalities'.
The success of the show was perhaps in the revealing of the family as characters.
P.M.: Yes, but it's not the matter of 'family'. 'Family' is only the material,
the interesting thing is the approach to it. The approach to it in the 70s,
for instance as you mentioned Wünsch Dir Was, had been a critical approach
to family. These games had a name, I believe, of 'harmony game'. But it was
a game that when the audience is laughing-which is the best for the producer
of the show-the laughs had occured not when the family was in harmony but when
the family was in conflict. This had been the approach in the 70s. The audience
was open to laugh about conflicts in the family. Today I believe the aspect
is not conflict but harmony.
I think that the historical process has been somewhat of restoration. I think
people might think today: "freedom is a category of political thinking,
the state is free etc., but it has nothing to do with me. My own life is getting
a cheap pullover and getting a cheap car and getting to bed to sleep and let
the world go its own." I think that the state of society is enormously
disinterested in public affairs. This means, that neither I, or you, or she,
is responsible for what is going on. Evidently no one is responsible except
politicians. They should do their job. This atmosphere of the 70s, and this
is the point, had been one of a collective feeling of: "I can make things
right and I'm responsible for it." The feeling is such that today the individual
doesn't play any role anymore.
F.A.: By 1976 both you and Dr. Rohrbach, greatly responsible for the productions,
leave to work at the Bavarian Film studios. After a long tenure, von Bismarck
leaves as Intendant. Is it that the combination of political structures for
cultural productions is no more possible, or a new structure was considered
necessary, something other than the direct attempts now known as Arbeiterfilm?
P.M.: It's something I do not understand fully, but I often try to make it clear
to me. It seems to me to be some kind of zufällig. Es erscheint mir wie
ein merkwürdiger Zufall, dass bestimmte Personen, damit meine ich mich,
Rohrbach, Fassbinder, Bismarck, Höfer, zusammentreffen innerhalb eines
ganz bestimmten Klimas und einer ganz bestimmten Zeit. Mich gibt es noch, Rohrbach
gibt es noch, Höfer und Bismarck gibt es nicht mehr, aber es gibt andere.
Fassbinder gibt es auch nicht mehr. Nun denke ich, dass die gleichen Personen
innerhalb eines anderen Zeitabschnittes nicht mehr auf solche Ideen kommen würden.
There is some form of coincidence or historical circumstances-das deutsche Wort
dafür, ein modernes, heißt 'Zeitgeist'. Not only the producers have
changed, but society has changed. The climate in society, the consciousness
of the audience has changed. The 70s have been a period of reform. Reform means
changes, smaller changes, but changes with the direction future. I feel that
this time is going to the opposite, in the direction Vergangenheit, some kind
of a restoration. In so far my mind is affected by this. Why shouldn't it? I'm
a member of this society.(16)
F.A.: These films were noted for working with both sides of a classical subjective/objective
binary-adding to the supposed 'objectivity' (exterior), documentary the 'subjectivity'
(interior) of a character. Was this a problem, that it's not exact in a sense
of being classifiable, it's not simply reconstructable along lines of categories
such as 'fiction', 'documentary', 'entertainment', etc.
P.M.: The audience doesn't care about that. Only the critics find this a problem
and care about that. Sie setzen Maßstäbe. Ein Kritiker braucht ja
immer einen Maßstab, um ein Urteil zu treffen. Wenn er einen Film mit
einem Arzt sieht, hat er eine Vorstellung, wie ein Arzt aussieht. Und jetzt
sagt er: "So ist ein Arzt." Besonders deutsche Kritiker-ich weiß
nicht, vielleicht sind amerikanische Kritiker klüger-vergleichen gerne
mit der Wirklich-keit. Das ist der Maßstab. Es ist auf den ersten Blick
völlig klar, dass dies eine Familie ist, die wir erfunden haben-so sind
Arbeiter im statistischen Sinne nicht. Klar, sie sind ja auch synthetisch gemacht.
I think, it plays an important role, that working class is some kind of a category
in the mind of people-der Begriff 'Bürgertum' ist völlig verschwunden.
Man weiß nicht mehr, was ein 'Bürger' ist. Man würde sagen:
Jeder. Der Kanzler sagt in seiner Ansprache "Bürgerinnen und Bürger".
Er hat völlig vergessen, dass 'Bürger' eine soziologische Kategorie
ist. 'Angestellter' ist keine Kategorie mehr heutzutage im Bewußtsein.
'Arbeiter' ist eine Kategorie wie 'Zigeuner'. 'Arbeiter' ist noch eine Kategorie.
Insofern verlangt man, oder verlangen die Kritiker von einem Arbeiter eine realistische
Darstellung. Ein Cowboy ist ein Cowboy. Nobody in Germany knows a Cowboy in
reality. Everybody accepts that it's some kind of a myth. Er akzeptiert das
Bild, das er auf der Leinwand sieht. Aber die Arbeiterklasse hat noch nicht
einmal die Freiheit anders zu sein als der Bürger es sich vorstellt. Working
class hadn't the liberty to be different than what is preformed in the head
of the viewer.(17)
It is interesting that the reason why they stopped this series had to do with
society, but not in a political sense. I think you can read it in one of these
essays, but in short: The Ernst Bloch-category 'aufrecht' means not to have
in mind the rules of the society. The rules of the society don't allow one to
'go upright', they mean 'Anpassung' (adaption). I think it's interesting that
the leaders of the working class themselves applaused to the series, z.B. the
Deutsche Gewerkschaftsbund. On the other side they told us: But where are the
rules the working class has to live with? The rules they meant were: Where are
we, the functionaries of the working class. We couldn't use them in the series,
because we didn't want that only the functionaries could 'go upright' and the
others had no head for them-selves. And in so far the representatives of this
working-class took care that this program would not become so anarchistic, as
it seemed to them, but orderly, more orderly.
We had a large discussion in WDR. There were about 200 or 300 representatives
of the Ruhrgebiet-working class. And one after the other went to the microphone
and said: "Wonderful, that finally there is a series about problems of
working class people, but unfortunately you don't have the representatives in
it. It's not orderly." We knew it wasn't orderly;the approach had been
anarchistic. Anarchistic means individually. And so this process of restoration,
as I felt it, was initiated ironically not so much by CDU or by employers, but
by the working class representatives themselves. It's a rather German behaviour.
Things should go orderly. And even culture should be in order.
Translations:
1. P.M.: This was my intention. But it was his intention then too. My point
of reference, my system of reference was quite clearly not American series,
but German series. Family programs-the Schölemann family they were called.
Funny programs, very harmonious and people were used to looking at it. It was
a great success with the German audience.
2. P.M.: I am trying to recapture the way it was at the time. Your question
confused me so much because it has nothing to do with what's in my head, because
my mind doesn't work that way. It works this way: I would like to create something,
produce something that gets to the audience - this is the problem of any mediation
- and on the other hand, and this is a result of my biography and my university
studies, I had certain critical ideas about the state of society. And now I
wanted to bring these together.
3. P.M.: Today it would be unusual, but in this time, in the late 60s, beginning
70s, this was a time ... all of society was up in arms;all of society had the
feeling that the old structures -actually the pre-Nazi structures that then
were taken over by the Nazis - had all been reinstated. The term used after
1945 was not 'construction' but 'reconstruction'. And in fact it was all a perfect
reconstruction of the Weimar period. That was the Adenauer era. And then came
the Willy Brandt era. Which meant the first leftist federal chancellor since
1933, 30 years after, who stood for a utopia, stood for a blueprint according
to which society can be changed. Then there were the students who were critical,
the universities that got going. The whole social climate was basically very
favorable. Ideas always come up - at least ideas do for a mass medium - when
the overall social climate is like this. And so at the time it wasn't at all
unusual. Before Eight hours are not a day were other working class films
that were mostly turned out by the Berlin Film School didn't appeal to me, because
it was all such a naturalistic approach to reality. It was a kind of doubling
of the way things are. And I thought if you do something ... I have to add something
here. My own very powerful conviction at the time was that I'm the one who is
setting up this communication: it gets transmitted there, and something is going
to give. The communication will change something. This was a basic belief that
today I no longer share, but then I did. I thought I push this button here and
the light goes on there. It was the general feeling then, not just my feeling,
that if you actually hold such a position in a mass medium, which means reaching
an audience of 10, 20, 30 million people in one evening, you felt that it was
a privilege and a responsibility. They are 'less educated than me', they are
'less privileged than me', and I am responsible to them-responsible to take
care of them and to see that their living conditions improve.
4. P.M.: I didn't think of it as an experiment.
5. F.A.: But at the other stations - Bremen, Hamburg or Bavaria - wasn't this
thought to be the case?
6. P.M.: OK. You have to recognize the fact that the West German Broadcasting
Station (WDR) is a very large network. Bremen does two productions a year, WDR
does about twenty a year. In other words, Bremen couldn't have done it. We had
the money and the broadcasting time to try it in.
7. Rotfunk = 'The Red Network'
8. P.M.: It wasn't a question at the time of getting permission. I will begin
with myself. I have been more or less ideologically stamped. I am a sociologist
and, moreover, took my degree at a university where sociology was called 'critical
theory', which means Adorno. That was what stamped me. As TV producer I was
at first almost completely autonomous as long as I didn't break any general
rules. As long as I was successful in my work, everyone would say: So, you want
to produce that and that, produce it. Any boss was happy if I delivered an interesting
project and would say: Oh, that's interesting the idea with the working class.
Meanwhile the incentive - and now I am getting to the 2nd level in the hierarchy
- came from Rohrbach and from a quite simple logic: two -thirds of our spectators
are worker but our films are about doctors, professors, factory owners, etc.
Why don't we do something different? It was all very naive and innocent. Now
Rohrbach is not an ideologist, so I said: I'm the ideologist. And at that point
as producer I said: OK, fine, that's great. Then this special concept was added.
Rohrbach, as I said, had no ideology; he is a liberal thinker and he is interested
in success. He wants the TV plays on the WDR to be successful. This is a promise
I uphold. The series was a success. Now a different angle comes into play that
you haven't mentioned, that's very crucial. That's the TV director at the time,
Werner Höfer. Bismarck plays a really wonderful role in all this, namely,
none at all. Bismarck was chief executive - and this was only possible in the
Seventies - who understood his official position as being one of representing
the network. All the producers were supposed to be happy and make wonderful
programs that he didn't even bother to look at. I was only called in to see
Bismarck two or three times in crisis situations and that was weeks after the
program had been aired. He hadn't yet seen the program himself.
9. P.M.: Someone had protested, an influential politician had complained, big
business had complained. The producer was called in and then all Bismarck wanted
to know was: We have a problem, what should I tell these people. He only wanted
the producer to more or less furnish him with arguments that would win his battles
for him. In other words, Bismarck was the old type of Prussian officer. He accepted
responsibility for his men but they were expected to do their own fighting.
A lord of the manor and we were the farmhands. Bismarck was a man of 'laissez
faire'. He was the good father and the work was done by others, the specialists.
And between Bismarck and Rohrbach there was Werner Höfer, the director,
and he played a very great role indeed, because he embodied this climate of
social upheaval. Höfer, too, was no idealogue, he was a journalist. A journalist
whose primary concern was: Everything we do must in some way or other call attention
to itself. Maybe the people will be contra, maybe get excited.
10. P.M.: Critics. And politicians. Höfer was of the opinion that a program
praised by all the politicians must be lousy. If all the politicians get worked
up, then it must be an interesting one. Not ideologically thought out, but it
gets attention -marketing if you will. That was the general climate in which
this took place, in other words, its cultural context.
11. P.M.: Today this would be quite unusual. Then it seemed normal. Bismarck's
successor was a social democrat, Bismarck was nothing at all. Maybe he voted
for the social democrats, maybe not. He was Bismarck the personality. Mr. von
Sell was a social democrat and in his official speech to the staff he described
the main task he set himself to be that of making the broadcasting network governable.
He meant: the network as I have taken it over is not quite orderly enough;I
have to get it into such shape that I can completely control it. And that's
the difference between the early and the late Seventies. Or at least that was
the specific case of the 'Rohrbach - Höfer - Bismarck period', that they
were liberal.
12. P.M.: No. Just to deal with problems of the working class. Rohrbach wouldn't
use the word 'class'. He meant how many people in our audience belong to a certain
social group. There's a difference between class and group.
13. P.M.: I take it that a term that at the time played a big role and that
has also come up in this article was a very crucial one: 'standing erect or
tall' [der aufrechter Gang]. It was used by a philosopher who was read
quite a lot at the time: Ernst Bloch. The fact that people in bourgeois society
shouldn't go bowed before their superiors, but should stand tall. The premises
of the whole experiment was quite simply that we - and now I really mean Fassbinder
and myself - wanted to show people not to go around anxiously, but to walk with
their heads up, and when problems arise to say out of a great well of self -confidence:
I am who I am. And I don't want things this way, I want them that way. That
was the entire ideology. All of which means that the entire idealogy basically
stated: You people, it's great fun to fight your own battles. No class war.
Just a fight for yourself, what you think is right, and you fight
for it.
14. P.M.: It has another meaning. The spectator, also the working class spectator,
is used to looking at television plays where a hospital superintendent says:
It's to be done this way;that's the way I want it. The hospital doctor stands
tall. There's a business man, a factory manager, he says: It's to be done this
way. He stands tall. Everybody stands tall, only the workers don't. They just
shuffle along. They always take orders from somebody else. The whole art of
..., or what caused all the stir at the time, was - and that really had a great
deal to do with what you had seen up to then - the fact that the main character,
Gottfried John, did not look like a worker in a German television play. He wasn't
dressed like a worker normally was. It wasn't realistic.
15. P.M.: The family wins, yes. I think differently about this today. I think
it was at the time greatly overrated and I assume that if we had continued the
series, this model ... I think the success of this series was not due to the
main characters, Gottfried John and Hanna Schygulla, but was due to the supporting
characters. The supporting characters were the ones who represented the family.
Grandma and grandpa, mother and dad. In other words, characters from the bourgeois
genre itself. I would say it is nevertheless interesting to see if it succeeded
to mediate from this little - but also from this large - thought, this aufrecht
gehen. If it succeeded to bring the viewer pleasure while they are watching
both - that and how - someone is fighting. That's enough.
16. P.M.: It's something I don't
understand fully, but I often try to make it clear to myself. It seems to me
to be some kind of coincidence. It seems to me to be a strange coincidence that
certain people - and I mean me, Rohrbach, Fassbinder, Bismarck, Höfer-come
together at a certain time in a certain climate. I'm still around. Rohrbach
is still around. Höfer and Bismarck aren't, but there are others. Fassbinder
is also not around anymore. I think now that the same people in another time
wouldn't get the same ideas. There is some form of coincidence or historical
circumstance - the German word for this, a modern one, is 'Zeitgeist'.
17. P.M.: The audience doesn't care about that. Only the critics find this a
problem and care about that. They set up criteria. A critic always needs a criterion
in order to arrive at an opinion. If he sees a film with a doctor, he knows
what a doctor looks like. And now he says: That's the way a doctor is. Especially
German critics. I don't know, maybe American critics are smarter and like to
compare to reality. That's the criterion. It's clear from the first moment you
see them that this family that we invented is not working class in a statistical
sense. It's clear;it was made up synthetically. No one knows what a bourgeois,
a citizen, is;you could say: everyone is. The chancellor addresses the 'citizens'
in his public speeches. He has completely forgotten that 'citizen' is a sociological
category. Office employees are today not a category in anyone's consciousness.
But a 'worker' is a category like a 'gypsy' is. A cowboy is a cowboy. Nobody
in Germany knows a cowboy in reality. Everybody accepts the fact that he is
some kind of myth. He accepts the picture of him that he sees on the screen.
But the working class does not even have the liberty to be different from the
way the bourgeois pictures him. Workers hadn't the liberty to be different than
what is performed in the head of the viewer.